David O'Connell
Jesus Camp
June 4th 2007 03:24
Terror and mayhem.
This 2006 documentary about a Evangelical Christian camp for children tries to be impartial, but the horror of it all doesn't escape notice. It's impossible to be completely objective about something as divisive as religion, and the filmmaker's bias shows through.
No amount of bias can make up for the fact that these camps exists to provide indoctrination of young Americans. Some of the scenes are hilarious, but others make you shiver with dread, as the homeschooled children so confidently dismiss science in order to please their mothers and church leaders.
Jesus Camp is fascinating to watch, as most of us would never encounter this kind of fanaticism in our daily lives. A little taste, though it has been pointed out, this YouTube video takes footage from the movie, but some of the edits are not the work of the filmmakers, namely the repeats and slow motion effects:
I've never heard of glossolalia (speaking in tongues) in church before, but I'm not a church-goer, so maybe this is what happens there? That's pretty eerie, if you ask me, but apparently this is a common occurrence.
A long time ago, my father spontaneously got a fit of religious compulsion and put me in a Bible camp during the summer for a week. Previous to that, our family hadn't been to church in years, which made my appearance at camp quite odd. We didn't do anything except put on a play about Jesus, and I had to wear a robe. There were snacks, which was quite nice, and I was the only boy in a group full of girls, quickly turning into voluptuous young women.
I didn't speak in tongues, and I definitely did not feel any kind of religious delirium, like the kids in Jesus Camp appear to feel. Watching the film, I couldn't help but feel nauseated that the camp was essentially a farm team for the Republican party, despite the preachers claiming it was apolitical.
In fact, watching Becky Fisher get all the kids riled up for some a-prayin' is strangely similar to videos or descriptions of satanic rituals, possession or cults. That's right, it looks bad. Real bad. And when Fisher talks about her enemies, the followers of Islam, indoctrinating their kids to hate the West, she sounds guardedly jealous. It would appear that she would love for American schools to turn into Christian equivalents of the hate-factories in the Middle East, recruiting young kids for a holy war.
Some highlights:
- one of the kids likes to preach, and he's got a rat-tail mullet.
- one of the girls likes to dance to Christian heavy metal (??) but has to punish herself when she 'dances for the flesh'.
- Becky Fisher cleanses they kids with bottled water. Bottled water is so, like, 2001. Don't you know it's bad for the environment?
- Ted Haggard, once the mighty leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, speaks about how bad and nasty homosexuality is:
...but then gets busted for having a three year affair with a male prostitute and crystal meth. Way to knock it out, Haggard!
- Becky Fisher claims that her church has no political agenda, but she's very eager to get the kids to pray for the appointment of a right-wing Supreme Court judge, and to bless a huge cardboard cutout of George Bush.
- A cardboard cutout of George Bush? I wonder if Bush put hidden remote cameras in the eyes, like in Dodgeball?
- Harry Potter is evil, apparently. Why let your kids read something they enjoy?
All in all, Jesus Camp is thoroughly enjoyable, and a great watch if you're like me, and you want even more reasons not to be Christian. May the numerous rubbery arms of Ganesha welcome me into the polytheistic folds of Hinduism.
I say: If you're not already riled up about conservatives, watch this and get engorged with rage, as the Church uses their authority to politically orient the kids. Or, if you're like me, and have no idea about Christian churches in America, watch this to get a little taste, biased as it may be.
See it for: The black Gospel churches have a lot of appeal, with the rhythm and soul of gospel music... in comparison, I couldn't stand the music they played in Jesus Camp.
*this image taken from the Wikipedia page on Jesus Camp
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Comment by Damo
Evengelicals are a strange mob of super enthusiastic folk that confuse public displays with religion. More of a show than a way of life.
'Speaking in tongues' is one of those wobbly terms that was borrowed from the Bible where it had a specific meaning (ie: able to speak in any language) then warped to fit what ever you want it to mean. Usually just babbling on incoherrently and pretending you can understand it.
On one hand they are enthusiastic and full of joy.
On the other they are enthusiastic and full of joy for show.
I suspect this has more to do with hysteria than religion.
Just my humble opinion
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Kleo, you'd get nauseous over this one, then...
Comment by KylieW
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When I was in New York a couple years ago, I saw the Harlem Gospel Choir. They're fantastic (and I'd go to one of those gospel churches for the cool singing). But damn do they love God and Jesus. They were crying and carrying on. My sister and I were sitting with these English tourists. The 5 of us were the only ones in the whole place who weren't proclaiming their love of Jesus and crying. It was quite amusing.
Comment by JohnDoe
Film & TV on DVD
Great review of a doco I'v been meaning to check out for a while, thanks for the reminder.
Oh and you might want to check out Hell House...it's in a similar vein of real life confusion.
Comment by JoshZ
well, hard to know what to write really.
From my perspective some christians scare me. Usually these kind of christians.
On the flip side though, I also know alot of christians from Hillsong that are wonderful people, and they do worship passionately. Some are jerks. Thankfully the jerks I have met are exceptionally well outweighed by the people that I would say are some of the best people I have ever met.
War terminology usually leads to people not using their brains enough. Sometimes it is accurate. And to tell people to be brave, valorous and dutiful is what they need to be told. But they also need to be told to love their neighbour, and pray for people they don't like.
As far as Bush goes, I don't like him. I'll leave it at that.
Speaking in tongues......well.....I do it.
JZ
p.s. I picked Hillsong because they are also fairly enthusiastic, jumping up and down etc. And because they are a church that people think is fairly evangelical in it's style.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
The indoctrination those children are subjected to is nothing short of abusive. The camp only serves to cripple their intellects and subjugate their wills to an imaginary wrathful judge in the sky. Come to think of it, I could say the same about a lot of religious practices in general.
Sure, the people in 'Jesus Camp' practice a more extreme form of Christianity than the mainstream. I am fully aware that the people in the movie are not indicative of the majority of Christians in America. They all read the same book, though. Perhaps it's time to stop wondering why some Christians believe one way, and other Christians believe another, and consider the problems with the source that feeds ALL of their fantasies....
Comment by Lilla
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I have to quote KylieW ...
*waving at Kylie*
As it happens : Just on Sunday a friend asked if I wanted to go to this White Eagle Lodge - (I love NAtive Indian meditations) ... and apparently some Indian Channelled through this stuff to a small English Girl a century ago, or something like that.
It turns out the service was exactly like the one above, but more becuase now it masked dominance over every single religion as its own. Hinudism, Buddhism, Judaism and even had a posessed woman rolling her eyes around and singing in unnatural tones... Made my liver ache... thought I'd vomit... and so supremely 'w.h.i.t.e' as to make me want to strangle their superior necks.
Didn't I realise, they are the only ones to go up there in the 2012 ascension?
wtf?
I love gospel too.
Lilla ...
Comment by Ahmed
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I hate radical religion, intersting how they are all so much alike. For instance she said how there are those who love jesus and those who don't, Shias have an 'those who love Ali and those who don't', and you kind of find yourself stuck in between. Love as in how? I mean as a Muslim I love both Jesus and Ali but apparently I don't to such a sufficient degree that deems me worthy of heaven in either of the eyes of radical christians and radical muslims/shias.
Though in hindsight aren't they just the natural balance to rational people? Equal and opposite...
Isn't it just hilarious that the 'Kids on Fire' camp is in 'Devils Lake'?
Though in all fairness the film maker clearly is going out of his way to be biased here with the sound manipulation...
Comment by Cibbuano
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josh, I'd like to hear more about speaking in tongues. You do it? Why? Seriously, to those of us that have never heard of it - it sounds devilish...
lilla, what's white eagle?
winston, yes, it's the kids that frighten me in that movie...
JD, yeah, catch this one. I'll look for hell house...
kylie, gospel is riveting...
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by charliesgirl_992000
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Speaking in tongues, does not happen in all churches. it doesn't happen in mine. when i was a pre teen, i wnet to one with a friend. we could not stop laughing through the whole thing. needless to say, "We where never invited back!!" lol not taht we would have went.
Tammy
Comment by Helen's House
Speaking in tongues is a gift that a Christian might ask for and receive. It enables us to by pass the mental process (which often slows things down dramatically) and go directly into spiritual contact with God. We can ask for interpretation if we wish. Occasionally God does use this gift to communicate in another known language as well.
The warfare prayers are not about people at all. They concern the activity of spiritual beings that are up to no good, and like to take control of human activity. Christians love people without reserve and pray for them, whoever they are.
The Bush picture was simply an aid to focus children on prayers for the leader of the nation. They'd be doing that whoever the leader was because it is a directive to pray for leaders. It truly isn't political. The cardboard is only that - cardboard. The leader has huge responsibility and it is always good to pray for wisdom for them.
It truly is a terrible shame that some Christian leaders like Haggard don't live up to their word. But that doesn't mean there aren't hundreds who do. They don't get the publicity though!
Witchcraft (as in Harry Potter) is indeed an evil institution and much more non-scientific that Christianity. There are indeed spirits that connect with people, given the opportunity, just as the seances suggest. The return of witchcraft will downgrade society right back to the dark ages if we continue to play with it. It enables domination and control rather than freedom, but its manner is seductive so that the process is not well recognised.
It's sad to hear such hate messages about matters of faith. Hate is a great preventative barrier of learning, very emotive/passionate and not at all scientific.
I can't fathom why Hinduism rates so well in a scientific age!
Comment by Ahmed
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Did they do that to President Lincoln? The one who out lawed slavery?
The difference between Harry Potter sorcery and Christian interpretations of science is that Harry Potter is openly fictional wherein Christianity enforces the idea that it is purely factual. I'm not saying this in a derogaatory way, just that your comparison and claim that 'Harry Potter is much more non-scientific' is not a fair comparison here, nor is it relevant.
If you believe Harry Potter will return society to the dark ages then thats simply your opinion and belief and I won't hold it against you, teach it to your kids if you so wish, I still won't hold it against you.
Hinduism probably does so because it is an outward and openly spiritual religion and makes no claim of scientific accuracies, you don't have a museum of hinduism making such claims taht the T-Rex ate Coconuts until Adam was banished from the garden of Eden. the thing with hinduism is that it is a purely unobtrusive religion that lives and let dies.
Comment by Cibbuano
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Yeah, I wouldn't say that it's unobtrusive... after all, it shapes lives, which means it has the power to be obtrusive.
Comment by Ahmed
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I meant unobtrusive in the sense unobtrusive to people who don't believe in the religion, if you're gonig to look at it in terms of changing people then of course it's obtrusive, thats the point of religion after all.
You have christians in politics who are trying to vilify and take away the rights of minority groups, you don't have Hindus doing the same.
Comment by Helen's House
Whlat people don't understand about Harry Potter is that what he does was practiced in much the same way as seances stil are, and powers of evil actually are invoked. it looks like fun, but it's a surreptitious lead in to much worse scenarios. Hallowe'en is another example of a practice (taken lightly now) which had its origins in the days of human sacrifice and will lead right back there given enough rope. Just look at what happens. Children go around to homes saying "Either give me a treat or I'll do something against you ( trick = curse)". Is that the society we want to develop? Take that to its logical conclusion! Children need to be taught to find out what they can do to help people, not how to manipulate them - even in fun!
You say it's only a game.
Words have power. They establish neurological paths in the minds of those who say them and those who hear or read them. They create the future. Why do businesses pay so much attention to the language of positive thinking - not because it doesn't do anything. Why does Coca Cola spend so much on ads? Not because it doesn't change anything. Everything that is said creates the future, so what we teach our children is crucial.
Comment by Ahmed
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I hold nothing against anyone whatever their beliefs if they are not trying to hurt me in any way shape or form.
Here in Australia I don't notice Hindu's anywhere, certainly none trying to kill me, so I have nothing against them, even if some of them did try to kill me or convert me to their religion in an annoying fashion i still wouldn't hold it against any one other individual, it's as simple as that really.
However in the US you constantly here about evangelical christians up to some sort of trick, from forcing prayers in schools to whatever else - I don't support that however at the same time I don't condemn it and I actually understand why, for instance, a christian would want the ten comandments in congress, though I would also understand why others would. Hence I don't pass down judgement upon a people or even a person behind an act or acts involving their beliefs being forced upon other people.
I also like the idea that maybe evangelicals are mis-represented, I'd prefer it that way and I wouldn't be surprsied if these kids turn out to be the nicest and most polite children in the whole country. I'm not in this to say 'evangelicals = crazy christian cultists' though as a humanbeing I can't help but develop a negative view of them and simplyh say 'I'd rather not raise my children like that' and thats as far as it goes and as far as I can take it.
Yes their acts may seem a little odd ball but I respect that is how they want to be, then so be it. I do find it a tad bt annoying if and when their parents/church leaders start misguiding them in the sciences though I can't help that, they can teach their children whatever they want though they won't get very far, not because I will personally go otu of my way to stop them but because a lot of people don't agree with their views hence they won't be able to get anywhere.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Helen, do you honestly believe that Harry Potter promotes witchcraft and 'evil powers'? Moreover, even if you do believe that, do you actually believe that those powers really exist?? It's a story, Helen. The whole thing. Harry Potter, witches, demons.....all stories. The only evil power Harry Potter has is that it inspires ill-informed persons who don't know that it's make-believe to foist their superstitious nonsense upon the rest of us. Let me repeat: there are no witches lurking in dark corners, Helen. The only evil in the world is that which we create ourselves.
Becky Fischer and her ilk qualify as evil, in my book. To me, filling children's heads with ignorance is evil. Dismissing science and reason in favor of mythological nonsense is evil. Castigating children for being children and daring to have fun developing their own personalities is evil. Using children as pawns to protest against abortion (an issue of which they can have no clear understanding at such a young age) is EXTREMELY evil, misguided, and manipulative. You want evil? Just look at a picture of every televangelist who took someone's hard-earned money with the promise that they would be rewarded by God for flushing it away. There's your evil. Better yet, you read the Bible and I'll read Harry Potter. We'll both stop reading after each one of us finds one example of rape, incest, murder, warfare, and genocide. Guess which one of us is going to finish reading first.
Just for the heck of it, let me touch on Halloween, too, since you mentioned it in the same breath with Harry. Helen, Halloween is not 'evil'. It has its roots in pagan practices, yes. I realize that there are people who equate 'pagan' with 'evil', but there is no basis for this. Christianity has been more than happy to appropriate lots of pagan festivals, including Easter and Christmas. Every time you decorate a Christmas tree, you can thank those evil pagans, Helen. As far as modern Halloween goes, for most people it's simply a way of having fun with the ideas that have scared us. It's a way of holding those scary monsters up to the light and saying, "Wow, these things aren't real or scary at all!" Still, there are those among us who remain scared, trembling in the darkness....
My point, Helen, is that you are free to believe as you choose. However, the moment those beliefs start imposing on the rights of others, or even worse, the moment they start having a negative impact on impressionable children, your beliefs need to be challenged. Please think about what you believe and why. It's important.
Comment by Miswanderlust
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Helen
Hallowe'en is another example of a practice (taken lightly now) which had its origins in the days of human sacrifice and will lead right back there given enough rope. Just look at what happens
Halloween (Allhallows Eve) was observed by some churches with religious services. However, most persons regarded it as a secular festival. In its strictly religious aspect, it is known as the vigil of Hallowmas or All Saints' Day, observed on November 1 by the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches.
The festival of Halloween is based on a combination of the Christian commemoration of the departed faithful (All Saints' Day) with the pre-Christian Celtic feast associated with a celebration of the end of summer and the Celtic New Year. Celts who lived in what is now known as Ireland, Scotland and parts of Great Britain celebrated their new year that began November 1. Allhallows' Even was observed on the evening of October 31st. Around 800 A.D., the day became known among Christians as Allhallomas which eventually changed to All Hallow E'en, or Halloween.
Celtic peoples adopted Christianity quickly, easily, and strongly. The conversion of Celtic peoples did not, however, keep them from celebrating some of their old customs. Attempts to replace the year-end custom in the old Celtic calendar were only partially successful. Some of our Halloween traditions date back to these early times.
Summer's end and the celebration of a good harvest has always been an important event in the life of agrarian peoples. Samhain "Hallowday" or Samfuin (sam fuin) summer's end, marked the end of the yearly cycle and was celebrated with both religious and agrarian rites. It was the period for threshing and of food preparation for the winter season. On that evening, so it was believed, present, past, and future became one. Celts gave thanks for the safe return of their cattle to winter quarters, and invoked their gods for prosperity and good crops for the coming year.
Words have power. They establish neurological paths in the minds of those who say them and those who hear or read them. They create the future. Why do businesses pay so much attention to the language of positive thinking - not because it doesn't do anything. Why does Coca Cola spend so much on ads? Not because it doesn't change anything. Everything that is said creates the future, so what we teach our children is crucial.
Words don't have the power that actions do in regard to parenting
Mis
Thanks for reading "my take on this"
Comment by D. Armenta
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Hol-EEEE Cow, Cibby, you touched off an interesting discussion on this one! I'm adding "Jesus Camp" to my list.
Just to clarify the picture..don't confuse the joyous, celebration-in-song-of-their- faith church services of some American black Baptist churches with the surreal and rather creepy services of some of the footwashing Baptist ilk. Snakehandling, talking in tongues and being "taken by the Spirit" are regular activities at those. I thought I was in the middle of a David Lynch nightmare when I attended one, no exaggeration.
I've been to both types of services, as well as a load of other services of a load of other religions. In my opinion, the American black Baptists have the best attitude of 'em all: they find real joy in their faith, have a strong and supportive church community that is open to anyone, and they "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" instead of hurling threats of hellfire and everlasting torment from the pulpit.
If I were forced to join a religion at gunpoint, I'd go for that one.
Harry Potter is evil? Oh, just go on and suck what little fun is left out of the world for the kids, Helen. Do it for their own good--after all, they can't figure anything out for themselves.
Sheesh.
Comment by Cibbuano
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Personally, I don't like Harry Potter books, because they're for children, and I find them a little childish to read. I have enjoyed some of the movies, because they're dark and creepy. Good direction.
But I love the idea that Harry Potter books are being read by millions of children... if something can motivate children to read, I think we should put our full support behind it. After all, there are more than enough distractions, in the form of TV and video games.
Hell, video games are still distracting me from reading!
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Comment by Banks
Christianity was never meant to be a religion, it's a lifestyle choice to follow the example of Christ and his teachings. Catholicism and organized religion has tainted what is otherwise the highest form of spiritual liberation & enlightenment.
Comment by Banks
Christianity was never meant to be a religion, it's a lifestyle choice to follow the example of Christ and his teachings. Catholicism and organized religion has tainted what is otherwise the highest form of spiritual liberation & enlightenment.
Comment by SuperJer
I think chanting or speaking in tongues is equally creepy. I don't care what religion it's classified under.
Unless we're talking about signing. Music is not creepy.
Comment by Ahmed
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What if it's music about Jesus Christ?
Also, how would you know chanting in tongues isn't just a prayer said in another language? I mean just because it isn't english doesn't mean it's creepy.
If someone says 'praise be to the lord' in english you'll understand it, so it doesn't sound as creepy as 'praise be tothe lord' in italian.
guess it just gets confusing, best not let your personal feelings turn into prejudice.
Comment by Fred Garvin
What I saw in this video was conditioning and brainwashing. I was mortified by several things...
1. The little girl claiming that some congregations are dead because they don't shout and dance. A girl this young didn't come upon this conclusion on her own; this idea was planted.
2. The Cardboard Bush. This was the embodiment of Old-Testament idolatry. Put up an image, claim that it embodies your religious views, then pay homage to it as the representation of your belief.
3. Children being taught, in a rote manner, what it means to demonstrate their religious beliefs. Speaking in tongues was particularly disturbing - they are teaching children that you can prove your connection with Jesus if unintelligible sounds come out of your mouth.
I do not speak from a lack of experience. As a child I was forced to participate in a 'Christian' cult. Speaking in tongues was put forth as proof of a direct connection to God. Church leaders were put forth as prophets to be followed and idolized. Sermons, in their three-hour entirety, were designed to demonstrate that the church leaders were the source of godliness.
This video clip turned my stomach. I saw myself in those kids. This camp takes what I experienced a step further - it gets the kids together and applies group pressure in order to get the kids to come to their revelations.
You can call it whatever you want...conditioning, brainwashing, group-think. It's all about sending good little Christian soldiers back to the parents. I saw nothing about letting people make their own decisions or decide what they believe for themselves.
Fred
Comment by Anonymous
It disgusts me how religion is misused to brainwash, manipulate and advance agendas.
However, as a Christian, (who also practices Yoga and loves Harry Potter) I do want to say that this video is not an example of "normal" or common Christian culture in the United States. They are really extreme and every Christian I know would be disgusted by this example.
It's really sad, actually.
Comment by back to real
The woman for two month kept on telling us to come to church. But we were always able to avoid it. I'm protestant, however I never go to church, my girlfriend is Buddhist and also she doesn't go to the temple.
One day we didn't find any excuse not to go to church. So we decided to go just to have a look.
At the beginning every thing seemed normal, people singing, Etc.... Then 5 ministers (one of them was aboriginal) started preaching, or whatever it's called for evangelic. their speech had no meaning. Nothing about how you have to respect people, how you have to help other person, what you can expect from a normal church. just "love Jesus" "the power of God" "feel the power of the whole mighty God" and so on.
Then they started preying, their preying being more and more intense. I was so surprised, a little bit scared. The people started speaking in thongs (especially the ministers). And it became like in the movie. I could feel some kind of energy, when a room full of people breathing and shouting. I mean not much Co2, warm air, the noise. You feel a bit dizzy. It's like if you go to a concert, or a techno party (no really).
I really felt like I was witnessing an ancient tribal ritual, ceremony. Nowadays people want to feel things, that's why traditional church are not doing so well and evangelic church keep on having more people.
They even lower the temperature of the a/c. Because suddenly we were freezing in that room.
So I promised myself not to go back their, because I think that if a god do exist. It would never ask his follower to do so. But who knows, god might have become some kind of rock star, who want to hear is fans scream his name.
P.s. I love the story of the T-rex and the coconuts lol.
the story of the anti-gay minister who get caught with a guy and Christal... priceless.
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Comment by Damo
Now I remember why I held off writing a post about this subject.
I first found the cardboard Bush scene on the same conspiracy site where I found images of GWB giving the Satanic salute.
I went with the Satanic salute post because I wanted to make a point about perceptions feeding prejudices.
Seems like I wasted my time. The point was mute and totally ignored.
Cibbaunno's Jesus Camp Post makes a good point about what seems to be cult like behaviour of certain Evangelical cults and churches.
However to translate that example into a broad generalization borders upon hysteria. 'Oh my Gawd the Holioloes are gunna get ya...'
There are plenty of websites that specialize in dealing with the subject of dangerous cults vs non dangerous ones. They are very careful not to use one cult as evidence of that all cults have evil intent.
Try the Rick Ross if you like.
The latest social catch cry these days is not 'PC' (Politically Correctness Gone Mad). It is 'The Religious Right' ( as every religious person on the planet is somehow linked to Bush and a deep dark conspiracy.)
The film showed some creeping thing but as some who has been forced to go on a number of corporate bonding camps (love ins) I can tell you that they can be equally creepy. But were they dangerous?
Creepy, alien, stupid and infantile but not really dangerous, just a waste of time.
After watching anything that stir raw emotions we must ask whether we are reacting to something as it is or something that has been edited. We have a right to ask whether they film makers made the film with an agenda.
We have this right because the film makers are suggesting that the churches have some hidden and evil agenda.
Personally I think these Mega Churches won't go away but they won't get much bigger.
GWB is a finished President and we don't know who will succeed him yet. It is entirly possible to get someone who is worse and from the opposite side of politics.
Then who do we blame?
Comment by JoshZ
I have read the Harry Potter stuff and my main complaint is that the later books aren't very well written.
Most of you say that this makes you sick. To a great degree, I'm with you. Christians should make their own choices, not have them made by everyone else around them.
I'm going to stop there to write a post about this. Cibby, I apologise for this shameless self-promotion.
JZ
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It's not the mere fact that what we have all watched is creepy or eerie, but the fact that these people are not practicing God's word in the manner that they have been told by God's Scriptures. God never intended for people to take bits and pieces of His Word and do what they want with it. Of course, many people do. Every Word in His Scriptures is to be taken literally and as truth. The Bible's constant and unchanging Word applies to man in all aspects. Yes, there are Old Covenant(Old Testament) laws that have been replaced by New Covenant(New Testament) laws, just as laws have been changed throughout the history of man. But, the laws of God regardless of what Covenant they are associated with, are still applicable to the learning and knowledge of man.
What we have all seen here is certainly not focused on the being or worship of Jesus or God, rather, these people are focusing on their own gratification and their own feelings. They practice worship without knowledge and they practice self-pleasure to ultimately, receive their own "high" of what they think is the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, there is a very large group just like these people in the video who practice the worship of God separate from His laws of worship. This group has come from a people who simply focus on themselves rather than God or Christ. Their ignorance of the Word of God has led them astray from the way God intended worship to be. They leave out major points from the Bible and they deliberately ignore parts of Scripture so they can feel good.
Quite honestly, I believe that no people group will truly ever get it right. Rather than ignoring or overlooking the important sections of Scripture, the least we could do is simply try.
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Comment by Anonymous
They make me sick... Kids are so impressionable, and they do have the right to tell them what they think is right, but not like this. They are totally brainwashing them, just like muslim extremists.
Comment by Anonymous
Today I had a little debate about religion at work which came about by me reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. The two guys I was talking to had different beliefs, one doubted God, the other said "it is hard to believe that a God does not exist."
I questioned him. He said “think of everything that exists, all energy, matter, every single thing down to the atom... now how did any of that get here? Was there nothing and then all of a sudden something? It must have been God.”
My response could have been, "well, what brought about God?" but the answer to that would have been "he's omnipotent, therefore he was always there."
I was honest and I told him I don't have an answer, that some questions are unanswerable by science till we explore, discover, and learn what this world, solar system, galaxy has to offer.
His reply was, "well, where science ends, God begins." I thought to myself, "wtf?" but I said to him, "that's just a default answer to fill the void. Just because you don't know doesn't mean it is left in God's hands; it means you don't know."
Later I thought about his beginning of cosmos the question and I realized, matter is consistent, it does not dissipate or multiply (if my memory serves me correctly). Therefore, the cosmos was always here, transferring matter from dead solar systems and breathing life into new ones; just as we die and our decaying bodies help grow plants, insects, other life.
And, c'mon... think of it this way if you must believe God exists...
Carl Sagan once said, and I paraphrase, how the Earth is merely a smote of dust in a infinitum of the cosmos. There are stars hundreds of times larger than our own sun. Space is likely limitless as is the types of stars, planets, moons, and life that lives within. How could you possibly fathom that one superior being is master of all and nothing.
I mean, have you played sim city? You are playing God. Do you think God sits there in his almighty throne and turns on and off natural disasters for sh*ts and giggles? Or as many bible stories suggest, our God is a vengeful, wrathful God who punishes those who sin and disobey his word... Why would a truly omnipotent being act this way? What use is an emotion like wrath to God? There is no reason to prove your power if you are all powerful.
Moreover, faith would be completely useless to an omnipotent being. Why would a being of ultimate power require worship? There is no reason. Imagine if you were God... Would you require worship? In the world of humans, something like worship is completely selfish.
I used to be a Christian and go to Sunday school when I was younger. I used to fight for Christianity when challenged. I grew up and realized that God was a fairy tale like Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Zeus, etc.
I know it is obvious that I'm a little ADD in my post, but what I'm ultimately saying is see the world for what it is. We are on a plant with billions of people with many different races and faiths. Your version of the world is going to be different than the version of someone living in a completely different part of the world. Stop being so arrogant to believe that you are right. We are here to learn. When you stop learning is when you start pushing your beliefs.
Once I was an arrogant atheist, arguing with people about how religion is completely pointless. I was wrong, and I admit it. Religion has its merits: it can instill ethics (not morality, as morality has religious connotations). Ethics are required to get along with your neighbors. Morality does the same, but it is taught through fear. Children shouldn't feel shame and guilt like they did in that video from “Jesus Camp.” They should be happy, learn from mistakes, an be disciplined with necessary. They shouldn't be too afraid to have a childhood.
And a sidenote about the Jesus Camp lady... C'mon gluttony? How is she qualified to be a fanatic, teaching kids not to sin when she obviously does not do the Lords bidding by staying in decent shape? And I say that sarcastically... because tolerance is the ultimate winner.
Black, white, fat, thin, Christian, Muslin, atheist... believe what you believe, look the way you look, it doesn't matter. You are human, get along. If you can't, avoid each other.
Shane
Comment by Blake Stack
Comment by Paul D
Faith/Religion is something that people are very passionate about. I like what Ahmed said earlier, that he is respectful of other people's opinions. We may not all believe the same thing, and that is ok. I am Southern Baptist. I believe that the only way to get to Heaven (and I do believe there is a Heaven and also a Hell) is to trust that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross and that he rose again, defeating sin and death. I believe this because God by definition is perfect and sinless, and he cannot be in the presense of sin. No human being is perfect. We all sin or do things wrong. One little white lie is wrong. This makes us unfit to be in the presence of God. The great thing is that God made a provision. Because Jesus was sinless, his death payed the penalty for our sins. God took his sacrifice and declared our debt as paid in full. The only thing we have to do, is accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. Nothing else can get you to Heaven.
Of course, many do not believe that. They say that you have to be open-minded. Why can't we both be right? Well, the problem with that is that when 2 people say things that are completely contridictory, then one person has to be wrong. I would do all I could to try and persuade you to believe what I believe because I think it is right for many reasons. I would try to do it in a loving way and not try to shove it down a person's throat. In the end, we all have the right and God given privledge to beleive how we want.
Many people that claim to be Christians check their brains at the door. My God and my Jesus do not want me to follow them with "blind" faith. Christianity that is portrayed in movies like this as well as some other media are not the kind of lives that Christ taught in the Bible. If you have any questions feel free to email me at chi_alpha04@yahoo.com if you want to talk civily about it.
Sorry for this being so long. Thanks.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Nikolai
Comment by Anonymous
I attended a nice, presbyterian church when I was younger. Everyone was giving. We were all fed after sermons. And I spent most of my times playing with the children. Why have I still become an atheist?
Shane
Comment by Anonymous
It answers everything about Jesus you never wanted to know...
then visit www.skepticsanotatedbible.com for a look at the "word of god". Just click on any chapter and verse to see the contradictions and hate and greed and sex contained within. This is what you teach your children???
Religious people are pathetic because they are stupid or brainwashed. Either way, they remain pathetic.
Comment by BAB
Why is it that when someone with whom you disagree expresses/teaches what they believe, they are “FORCING their ignorance on others,” but when you express/teach what you believe you are graciously enlightening others and freeing them from their ignorance and oppression?
Why is it that when the child of someone with whom you disagree speaks, they are a hopelessly brainwashed and ABUSED child, but when the child of someone with whom you agree speaks, they are a bright, independent, freethinking future leader?
Why is it horrific for a parent to teach (“indoctrinate” and “brainwash” as many of you state) their children about what they believe, while it would be virtuous for you to indoctrinate THEIR children in your beliefs?
The latter seems far more terrifying to me. The implication is the use of the State’s power to force YOUR will and beliefs on others and their children. That is terrifying in any form whether it be Communism, Fascism, a Theocracy, etc. What if the evangelicals were in the majority? Would it be acceptable for them to indoctrinate your children in their beliefs? Of course not! Then why should it be acceptable for you to force indoctrination of your beliefs on their children? The answer has always been the same throughout history. “They” (whomever one seeks to oppress) are mindless idiots incapable of higher thought, while you are enlightened, and therefore responsible for correcting their ignorance.
While I disagree almost completely with the theology and methods of Evangelical Christians, and acknowledge that they do seem to be rather intolerant, I would gladly defend their right to practice and teach what they believe, even though it often opposes what I believe. And for those of you who are concerned for the children of these evangelicals (or at least feign concern as an excuse to vent hatred and express your desire to seize control over their lives), take courage. Research shows that when these kids are old enough to make their own decisions, the vast majority of them leave the church.
Break the chain of hatred. You are responsible for yourself.
Comment by anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
How do these "faithful christians" know how God determines what is the wrong and right way to pray? I do not go to church every Sunday, but when I do, the service proceeds in the way of most churches I know of, by singing a few songs, praying, and preaching a sermon. And even people who do not go to church at all may believe in God and pray at home to themselves. I'm going to go ahead and assume, (though I may be wrong), that God did not come down from heaven and tell each of these people in the movie that they would go die or go to hell because they did not go join an organized group of individuals to jump up and down, beg God's forgiveness, and yell in tongues. The last time I checked the Bible, God mentions not praying for other people to see you pray.
It makes me sick to think that these people are making children think that "sin will lead to death" ("death" emphasized in bloody text, because obviously that's crucial). If sin really led to death, then we would all be dead. Apparently this is not always true, seeing as how everyone has sinned at some time in their life, whether they admit it or not. (Unless they are referring to death in the long run, which is inevitable.) But I'm pretty sure that's not what was meant. I'm glad that I do not have parents that encouraged something like this.
If you're offended by this, then be offended. I'm sorry. In my opinion, I think this is horrible. When I have children, they will decide how they will approach religion on their own terms, which I do not expect until they have reached a mature age. I just feel bad for these kids, and angry that there are people this ignorant.
Comment by Hitchens' perogative
Oh wait, there is no hell.
Damn.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Dear Helens House,
I hope you have the courage to read and reply to me.
You talk about hate being a barrier to faith. What of your own hate? Your inability to even try to understand other religions astounds me. I was raised Catholic, I was baptized, reconciled, communed and confirmed. I found that the church does not answer all my questions, and now I encorporate Hindu principles with Wicca and paganisim, along with the traditional Catholic views. I find this works for me - being open minded and trying to explain the glory of God and the human soul in a variety of ways.
Harry potter is just a story. Nothing but a fictional story written by a woman who is making lots of children happy. The practise of witchcraft and wicca is not so different to your own religion, it has discipline and faith and rules like any other. You will find that christmas, christs birthday, was worshipped for hundreds of years before his birth - all the major religious holidays including Easter were originally worshipped for other reasons. It seems to me, no matter which religion you are or what name you call God, those days are important. Halloween is merely one of these many days.
I think it is very important to remember that there truly is only ONE God, One Creator, lots of people call him by different names, because that is what is required for every individual to find him. The different religions are for the benefit of OUR understanding - God remains the one and only changeless power.
It saddens me that someone who proclaims to do Gods work can have hatred of anyone or anything. The number one rule of pagan religions is "Never belittle the path by which another finds the Creator"
I think thats a creed we should all learn to live by. All will go to God one day, whatever you choose to call him.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Harry potter was written by a woman who stole the basic concepts of Star Wars and re-wrote them, her attributed fame is the result of copying an entirely different franchise and putting it ina different setting.
Damn her.
Comment by Helen's House
Dear Kleonaptra,
Thank you for your challenge. I love to give account of my faith.
Hate operates llike a black/grey colour filter on everything including logic. As a Christian I earnestly try to obey Jesus and love people whoever they are, and whether or not I agree with their attitudes and actions. People are to be cared for, but also held accountable for their actions - hence our justice departments.
It is true that Christians wanted an alternative to pagan feastdays and took to using some of them for the worship of the Lord. I don't have a problem with that.
We agree to differ on Hallowe'en and Harry Potter. My comment here is that enjoyment is not the arbiter of reality. Everyone thoroughly enjoyed the Titanic until it hit the iceberg! If only they had known!
Pagan worshippers and atheists seem to have a field day belittling Jesus, who, after all, is the only one able to perform miracles and rise from the dead (well witnessed and attested facts, not myths) and whose word should therefore command more attention.
We shall indeed all give account of ourselves to our Maker one day when His justice and mercy will prevail as He sees fit. He said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" He gets the last say! Jesus shows us how to delight Him with our love. We have the freewill and choice of doing that or taking whatever comes. There is love and there is accountability.
PS. I did try a few other religions. That's all they were - just belief systems. Jesus is alive and loves us! Suits me!
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Ahmed. My, thats a colourful theory. I swear blind I didnt see any jedi nights with Harry Potter. If you want to talk about rip offs theres nothing worse than 'The Lion King' and Hamlet.
Dear Helens House,
Thankyou for your honest reply. I do not belittle Jesus and I dont agree with people who do. Any pagan who does is not a pagan! Jesus was enlightened and he came to show us the way. Its a shame everyone interprets him in different ways.
I ADORE people who agree to differ! That is the magic by which the world may be healed. God has created differences so we can overcome them and when we agree to disagree we are that much closer.
Im glad you have looked at other religions. I dont follow any particular one but which ever belief is required to make you feel closest to God is the right one. Thanks so much for replying and agreeing to disagree!
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
ah, heres the link: Really Long Link
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
ah, heres the link: Really Long Link
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Thanks for the memories.....Good chat cibby.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous