Acclaimed Iranian writer-director Abbas Kiarostami and French actress Juliette Binoche working together on a film is news, but it’s William Shimell’s debut performance in Certified Copy that has persistently needled the imagination of the world press. Shimell is a singer, not an actor, performing in opera for over three decades and becoming one of the United Kingdom’s most respected baritones. Last week I chatted to Shimell on behalf of Scene Magazine in preparation for the Australian release of Certified Copy. He turned out to be the second friendliest interview subject I’ve ever dealt with (congratulations Prince Paul), a propensity to burst into spontaneous laughter being quite a contrast to the fusty art critic he plays in the film. He enjoys pubs, cake, boats and putting his feet up. What a gent.


Where are you calling from?

I’m in the UK, in England.

Is that where you’re based at the moment?

Yes it is.

I believe Abbas Kiarostami first proposed the idea of you starring in Certified Copy during the director’s production of Cosi fan Tutte. But did you know each other before that opera production?

No, and he didn’t say, ‘Do you want to star in my next movie.’ He said, ‘Do you want to be in my next movie.’(laughs) I thought that maybe he meant do a couple of lines or, you know, sing a song, or something. I had no idea and it was only later that he said, ‘Oh, by the way. Um, yeah, you’re the male lead.’ If I’d known that before we started I might have been a bit less enthusiastic (laughs). But I’d already dug myself in too deep, really, and I couldn’t get out (laughs).

Did it almost feel like a reciprocal arrangement – his first opera followed by your first film?

Well, yeah. From what I understand, he’d been looking for somebody to do the role for some time and he just hadn’t found what he was looking for. Quite what he saw in me, I’ve got absolutely no idea. I don’t think he was looking for an opera singer. I mean, who would? If you’re going to cast a film it’s the last place you’d look really, because opera singing has no relation at all to acting in films… as I found out, really, pretty quick!

There has been all this talk – probably jacked up by the web – of experienced actors who might have been in line to play the part. Besides wanting to cast you for you, William, did he say why he was keen to cast a debut actor in the role?

No, he never told me why he wanted me. His reputation was made by working with non-professional actors and perhaps in a way he feels happier working with someone who doesn’t come from a film background. He never really explained.

Has the idea of acting always appealed to you? Had it ever occurred to you before?

No, because it just didn’t come up. I was quite busy doing opera and, actually, I’ve never liked doing dialogue in opera – in the roles that require it. I’ve never really liked doing it because it’s difficult to project dialogue and make it sound natural for theatre. Actually, I quite enjoyed the chance to do dialogue where you didn’t have to yell or shout. If anything you had to speak slightly under the normal volume, because the sound equipment is so sensitive.

And it’s such a dialogue-heavy film, and naturalistic dialogue as well…

Yes, it is. Well, naturalistic: possibly, although the situation that develops is quite far from that.

As an opera singer, my understanding would be that you are used to intensive and long rehearsals…

Don’t believe everything you’re told. We have a really lazy time. You might have, in the extreme, five or six weeks of rehearsals, but you start at 10, finish at 1, and then go from 5 till 8, but of that time… I usually take a book to rehearsals, and get through a book a week, sometimes more, because you spend a lot of time sitting around waiting for other people to do their bits. No, it’s not hard work, which is one of the reasons I enjoy it (laughs). I really like being an opera singer. But film was really hard work: you’d have to be on set at, say, eight o’clock for make-up – it only took ten minutes to do my make-up, I was beyond hope as far as the make-up department were concerned – and then you just sit around; you sit around waiting to do your two minutes, which is extremely stressful, really. Quite often they’ll shove a piece of paper in your hand and say, ‘This is the new script. Can you just learn that?’ And then they’d say, ‘Okay we’re ready now. Do it.’ Then you have to be in your character instantly, and in the same situation you were in yesterday, or the week before, and it has to somehow fit together and make sense. Yeah, they work hard those people. Imagine doing it for six months and doing only a few seconds a day: God!

Was there much crossover in skillsets – was your Opera experience any use to at all? Anything you could take from the stage and use?

No, not at all. For a career path, if you want to be a film star, don’t start in opera, would be my advice (laughs).

And if you’re getting into opera, be an avid reader…

Yeah, make sure of that, yeah (laughs).

What was it like working with a film director as opposed to a stage director – I imagine there are a lot of differences there as well…

Yeah, although Abbas is a very gentle director. He sort of coaxes you into producing the performances he wants. He doesn’t shout and scream and jump up and down, or maybe only once or twice (laughs), when I was particularly appalling.

Do you have a great interest in film, William? Would you describe yourself as a film buff?

No, not at all. I take my children to see the movies like Toy Story and How to Train Your Dragon and all that sort of stuff. I used to watch movies a lot on TV. Now I’m too exhausted, I go to bed. Having two fairly young children, I’m just too tired to stay up and watch films. I used to stay up and watch films. Like, when you get back from the pub and you watch a late night film, drink tea and eat cake – part of bachelor life, really. But, no, I wouldn’t say I’m a film buff at all, although now I’m much more interested in the process than I was.

I know in the past that Abbas Kiarostami has fastened cameras to the dashboards of cars and just let the actors go to work, so to speak – is that what was going on during that early scene of Certified Copy?

Yes. I don’t know how Juliette Binoche did it. We did it twice: once with a camera fastened to the bonnet of the car, which was okay. And the second time they put two cameras inside the car, and she could hardly see where she was driving, down this winding Italian road that was only just wide enough for two cars, so when something came the other way it got very hairy. And she was having to deliver dialogue, and she was being the person. I don’t know how she did it – it was extraordinary. I was totally dumbstruck with admiration, because I would have driven straight off the road, if I had to speak and drive at the same time.

So was it just a two-take deal. How many takes before you got it right?

I can’t quite remember now – it was a long time ago. We certainly didn’t do it that many times, because – and it’s quite surprising, I must say, because I thought they did it in two seconds at a time, and stuff – he would tend to do ten or fifteen minute takes. Like the restaurant scene for instance, where we’re having an argument in the restaurant, he ran the whole scene three times and he then chose what he wanted from that. But that was extraordinary: each of us had a camera pointing at us. We were sitting across the table from each other but when I was talking to Julia, I was talking to the camera next to her, so you would be answering her questions but to the camera and not to her. It was hard, it was difficult, because you had to imagine what she was expressing, because it takes away that technique of communication.

These are almost documentary style techniques that you’ve used in making this film…

In big lumps, yeah. It was quite continuous in the action, as it were. That also helped me to a certain extent I think, because it meant that I was able to live the scene as it were. I wouldn’t have to slot just a few seconds at a time together, which I think is one of the acquired skills of being a film actor.

Abbas Kiarostami and Juliette Binoche are both award-winners in the realm of filmmaking. Were you intimidated at all once you arrived on set, at least at first?

Yeah, I was, but at the same time, she was there to work. One thing I guess I did bring from opera was the way I prepare a personality. There was a certain amount of adjustment to be made in preparing for a film, because it’s a very different process, and I must say that Juliette was very helpful with that.

I’m interviewing an artist later regarding a Blade Runner project he’s working on and I can imagine Certified Copy is going to promote a similar question to that film: What do you think – are they husband and wife, or are they not?

Um… I still can’t make up my mind. I’ve seen the film twice. I saw it the first time at Cannes. They sent me a copy, right, once it had been finished, and my wife and my kids sat down to watch it. And I couldn’t watch it; I had to go out. I went into the kitchen and drank gin (laughs). So when I watched it at Cannes it was the first time I’d seen it, and I was too embarrassed by my performance, really, to work out what was going on. But when they were doing it, you were so busy doing the scene that you’re in, that somehow the way film was going was not foremost in our minds. We played each scene for itself, and it’s only when they were slotted together that you saw the whole effect the film had. Um… I don’t know. And Abbas, he always says, ‘I don’t give the answers. I just ask the question,’ so perhaps that’s what I should say.

And how have you found the promotion circuit? I mean, it’s, what, nine months since Cannes and you’re still talking about the film.

Listen, I tell you: I went to Cannes and I only had a couple of days there because I was rehearsing an opera in London. And in two days, I had more interviews than I’d had in 30 years as an opera singer (laughs). The thing is that publicity departments for an opera don’t have to try very hard, because there are only a certain number of seats and when they’re full, that’s it. Whereas publicity for a film – that’s the life blood, that’s how a film survives and is a success, the way it’s publicised, and you’ve got to make sure that people know that it exists and encourage then to go and see it, which is of course why I’m doing interviews with people such as yourself – I don’t get any money out of it (laughs), which is unfortunate. It’s an important part of the job, I think, and it’s quite fun actually because [in opera] nobody ever asks me what I think, so it’s quite nice now that people are asking me questions, and you have to listen to me too (laughs).

I do, but at least I make a buck out of it…

Yes, I suppose so (laughs).

Now, looking back on your first acting role. It’s such a particular, existential film. Do you think it was a good film to try your hand at acting, or if you had your time again would you choose something else?

No, I would work with Abbas. It was because of his help and guidance that my performance turned out the way it did. He is responsible for the level of my performance, as is Juliette Binoche – I mean, any credit goes to them and any criticism comes straight to me, I think. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity and I took it; whether it will go anywhere after this, I don’t know, but if Abbas Kiarostami ever asks you to make a film, you say ‘yes’. That’s what you do.

So you’re not booking tickets to Hollywood?

I’m sitting by the phone, still waiting, and instead people ring me up from Australia (laughs). My career in opera carries on – I guess it’s sort of decaying because I’m getting a bit old, really, to run around the stage singing. But it would be really nice – I keep emailing Abbas and asking him to make another one, and there may be some other possibilities. Who knows.

What are your plans for the rest of the year?

Well, my plans are always to do as little as possible, and then people come along and offer me work, which is annoying. I’m trying to rebuild a boat at the moment, which has been in the boatyard for five years now, and my wife says that is it’s not on the water this year she’ll go and set fire to it, or to me, I’m not sure which really. I’ve just been asked to go and do an opera in Paris, in May, June and July.